What happens when customers stop searching—and start asking?
That shift is already underway. Instead of typing keywords into Google, users are turning to ChatGPT, Claude, and other AI systems to get answers, recommendations, and even complete transactions. The result: fewer clicks, fewer visits to websites, and a new layer of decision-making that most companies don’t control.
Jochen Madler, co-founder and CEO of SiteFire, is building for that future.
After starting in academia with a focus on statistics and reinforcement learning, Jochen left his PhD to tackle a growing problem: brands are losing visibility inside AI systems, and they don’t know why.
The Moment Everything Broke
A turning point came when Google introduced AI-generated summaries in search results.
Some companies saw impressions stay stable—but clicks dropped sharply. Users got their answers directly from Google, without visiting the source. In one case, this shift hit revenue hard enough to trigger a major market reaction.
That exposed a simple truth:
Traffic is no longer guaranteed, even if demand exists.
If AI systems answer the question, your website might never get visited.
Search Has Changed—But Most Teams Haven’t
Traditional SEO was built around keywords.
Users typed short queries. Companies optimized pages to rank for those terms. Traffic followed.
AI breaks that model.
Instead of 3–5 word queries, users now write full prompts. AI systems expand those prompts into multiple searches, evaluate results, and generate a single answer.
That means:
Your brand might be mentioned without a click
Your competitors might be summarized alongside you
Or you might not appear at all
The unit of competition is no longer a webpage. It’s inclusion in the answer.
From Customer Experience to Agent Experience
Most companies still optimize for human users.
Jochen argues that’s the wrong focus.
AI agents are becoming the primary interface. They read content, compare options, and increasingly take action—whether that’s recommending a product or completing a purchase.
This creates a new layer: agent experience.
It’s not about how your website looks. It’s about:
Whether AI systems can understand your content
Whether they trust your information
Whether they can interact with your product or API
In some cases, this is already happening. AI systems can discover tools, authenticate, and use services without a human clicking anything.
Content Is Getting Cheaper—But Harder to Get Right
AI has driven the cost of content creation close to zero.
Anyone can generate blog posts, landing pages, or documentation at scale.
That creates a new problem: volume is no longer an advantage.
What matters now is precision.
The winning content is:
Structured for AI systems, not just humans
Aligned with how models retrieve and rank information
Positioned in the right places across the web
In some cases, that’s your own website. In others, it’s platforms like Reddit, YouTube, or third-party publications.
There is no single playbook. It depends on the query, the model, and the context.
Why SEO Isn’t Enough Anymore
Many teams assume this shift is just “SEO 2.0.”
Jochen disagrees.
SEO focused on ranking pages. AI search focuses on assembling answers.
That changes how visibility works:
Ranking #1 no longer guarantees traffic
Being cited matters more than being clicked
Brand presence inside the answer becomes the goal
This is where new categories like “Generative Engine Optimization” are emerging—but even that framing may be too narrow.
The bigger shift is toward influencing how AI systems think, not just what they rank.
The Next Step: Agents That Act
Today, AI systems mostly inform decisions.
Soon, they will execute them.
That includes:
Booking tickets
Purchasing products
Integrating APIs
Managing workflows
In one early example, an AI system discovered a company’s API, authenticated, and started using it—without any human involvement.
That’s a preview of what’s coming.
When agents take over the full journey, the “funnel” changes:
Discovery happens inside AI
Evaluation happens inside AI
Transactions happen through AI
If your product isn’t part of that flow, you don’t exist.
What This Means for Founders
This shift is still early. Most companies see less than 10% of their traffic coming from AI systems today.
But it’s growing fast.
That creates a window.
Founders who move early can:
Capture visibility before the space gets crowded
Build systems optimized for AI from the start
Lock in distribution as agents become more dominant
Those who wait risk losing their primary growth channel without realizing it.
The Bottom Line
Search isn’t disappearing.
It’s being abstracted.
Instead of users navigating the web, AI systems are doing it for them. That changes who controls attention—and how companies earn it.
Jochen is building for that world.
Because when AI decides what gets seen, recommended, and bought…
marketing doesn’t go away.
It just moves behind the interface.
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Chapters:
00:01 Introduction & SiteFire Overview
00:28 Jochen’s Background in Statistics & Energy Systems
01:18 Founding SiteFire & Early YC Journey
02:14 Moving to San Francisco & Ecosystem Exposure
02:50 YC Experience & Key Takeaways
04:00 Advice for Founders Applying to YC
05:25 From Reinforcement Learning to AI Marketing
06:20 Identifying the AI Search Opportunity
07:35 Google AI Overviews & Traffic Disruption
08:30 Rise of AI as the New Interface
09:17 Why AI Search Isn’t SEO 2.0
10:53 Rational Search vs Human Behavior
12:29 Marketing as a Math Problem
14:01 AI Search vs Traditional Channels
15:26 Websites Becoming Agent-Focused
16:33 Human Traffic vs Agent Traffic Trends
17:46 Adoption Gap & Real-World Usage
19:14 Long-Term Evolution of Search & AI
21:01 GEO vs AEO Debate
21:43 Agent Experience as the New Frontier
22:02 What Winning in AI Search Means
23:12 Distribution Risk if Google Disappears
24:10 OpenAI’s Role in Search Distribution
24:41 GEO vs SEO Debate Revisited
25:11 Markdown, Content Structure & AI Readability
25:58 SiteFire Product: From Monitoring to Execution
28:47 How AI Models Rank & Retrieve Content
31:00 Early Product Traction & Breakthrough Results
32:12 Content Strategy: Domain vs Platforms
34:00 Product vs Services Approach
34:58 Hardest Technical Challenges
36:31 Misconceptions About AI Marketing
38:25 Content Commoditization & Future of SEO
39:17 Competition & Incumbent Risk
42:27 Future of AI Agents Replacing Search
43:27 AI Agents Executing Transactions
44:56 Agent Reviews & API Ecosystems
45:47 Where Value Accrues in AI Stack
48:15 Vision for SiteFire & Agent Funnels
51:10 Rapid Fire: Startup Lessons & Beliefs
Transcript
Brian Bell (00:00:57): Hey everyone welcome back to the ignite podcast today we’re thrilled to have Johan Madler on the mic he is the co-founder and CEO of Sightfire it’s a YC winter 26 company and a team ignite portfolio company building the marketing infrastructure for the agentic web helping brands show up inside AI systems like chat GPT I think I’ve heard of those guys a Gemini and Claude thanks for coming on
Jochen Madler (00:01:18): Yeah, thanks for having me.
Brian Bell (00:01:19): Well, I’d love to start with your background. What’s your origin story?
Jochen Madler (00:01:22): So I grew up in Germany, Munich, Germany, and my background is really like technical, so statistics. I fiddled around a little in energy markets and like statistics for energy market simulation, did reinforcement learning optimization for energy grids. But then, yeah, I did a PhD in the same thing and then dropped the PhD to found Sidefire. So me and my co-founder, we met like seven years ago. We know each other since a long time, had all like hackathons competitions together. And then one day he came around and made me reconsider.
Brian Bell (00:01:52): That’s amazing. So he kind of pulled you out and said, hey, let’s do a startup.
Jochen Madler (00:01:56): Yeah, pretty much.
Brian Bell (00:01:58): That’s great. It’s always good to have those kind of friends that pull you out of your comfort zone. And then how did the app applying to YC come about?
Jochen Madler (00:02:07): So we started building Sidefire end of 2025. And back then in Germany, it was really about this AI monitoring space, really fiddled around with like GPT-5 came out. Everyone was thought of like, this is not the end of like anything or everything. software engineering all of it didn’t happen but then we like really got into this AI search Google AI model launch Google overviews launch and so we really started building this monitoring infrastructure and quickly sold it to like pretty large companies in Germany like BMW Deutsche Bank and Allianz and then we got into YC so everything actually happened pretty quickly we started end of 25 in like November building and in December January we were already in San Francisco
Brian Bell (00:02:46): What was it like to come live in the U.S., live in San Francisco, you know, there for three or four months during the entire batch?
Jochen Madler (00:02:52): Yes, exactly. Yeah, San Francisco, actually Dogpad is pretty close by. Yeah, it’s amazing. I mean, I’ve been there before in my time at Stanford. So I know the area. And of course, it’s like, yeah, if you’re building something like this, you at least want to have the ecosystem. And YC is, in my opinion, the perfect thing, because, of course, the agentic web and everything like these systems are being built there. And so, yeah, we now have actually like are in good contact with all of the big firms. And yeah, also, the ecosystem is just like really amazing.
Brian Bell (00:03:20): What was that whole experience like for you?
Jochen Madler (00:03:21): So I think we’ve been here to an accelerator for a previous startup in Munich and I’ve always been and also my co-founder like in various entrepreneurial programs so I know a little about the scene but I think what I see it’s always been just North Star right like where it’s like so much better and the interesting thing is the program is actually like less program than for most other programs so it’s like less events and stuff like this but the ones you do get and also the office hours you get it’s less but it’s more high quality and so it really like lets you work a lot and focus on your things and make meaningful progress and then steer you in the right level of like yeah the right basically level of granularity and steer you in the right direction
Brian Bell (00:04:02): Do you recall any key aha moments or takeaways during your time in the program that you’d love to share with founders who might be listening and considering applying to YC? There’s a lot of people that don’t get into YC, right? They only take one or two percent. So any kind of takeaways and things you’d like to instill to the founders out there listening that might be going zero to one like you just did?
Jochen Madler (00:04:26): Yeah I think like the interesting thing is there’s really no magic in the sense like there isn’t the magic pill they just hand you on day one right but it’s really like this ecosystem and like I think having the right mindset but also having the right ecosystem and like surrounding so surrounding yourself with like good people I see famously said like ditch many events like there’s so many tech events in SF just don’t go it won’t help you don’t hang out where like the scenesters are hang out where your customers are yeah so really stuff like this don’t go to like office spaces it’ll just slow you down move into one apartment like be scrappy stuff like this and then really hold yourself accountable so like set ambitious goals and then always like yeah meet them and if you don’t meet them it’s okay but you like break it down and know like why it didn’t work and then try again
Brian Bell (00:05:14): I love that yeah I mean I think if you have money in the bank I love that advice just don’t hang out with the scenesters don’t hang out with the people out there you know happy hours and events and there’s you know dozens every single day you could go to right just just focus on your customers build stuff they want and ignore all the noise right and set ambitious goals I love that those lessons so I mean you’ve had a really interesting background I mean deep reinforcement learning energy systems now marketing what are you seeing out there that others may have missed
Jochen Madler (00:05:42): Yeah, I feel like like there is no really romantic thing like that went from like energy and then now it’s like now it’s AI on marketing. But I think the connecting dot is, of course, LLMs and statistics. And I think I’ve always been interested in just playing around these systems. and now we are I’ve always been a user like one of the first users when complexity came out always found it amazing that it’s like better than HTTP because it’s not hallucinating it’s doing web search it’s grounding so always been on the user side and then using these systems more and more we found out that hey of course there’s also something happening with the ecosystem right like with the web pages and I think this insight was something that really struck me and us as a team because I think like right now with these systems we are seeing the biggest shift in search since Google came around essentially and the way people search online or actually the way people interact with brands is fundamentally changing and this is why it’s so exciting.
Brian Bell (00:06:36): What was that inevitable moment do you recall where you’re like okay this this needs to exist
Jochen Madler (00:06:40): Yeah so there was this monday.com earnings call and like I think it was q2 2025 and then there was like some LinkedIn post about it actually we had a an intern at the time who discovered this kudos and then we of course like dug in but the the the CEO or so So Google AI mode came out and Monday.com gets a lot of traffic from Google organic search. And so it’s the biggest growth driver. And then Google AI mode came around and they saw all of a sudden they had these overview boxes and they weren’t like they had impressions, but they had no clicks anymore because people wouldn’t click through to their site and their sales tanked. And then the CEO was asked in the earnings call, hey, you have this Google AI overviews now, what are you going to do about it? And he had no clue it was new, right? He had no clue how to solve it. And I think then, because of his answer, the stock tanked by, I think, 30% or something in one day. And we said, hey, obviously, there’s a lot of traffic and organic traffic, which is not just clicks, right? It’s users willing to pay. And if this is breaking down, then there is a big opportunity here. So something needs to happen.
Brian Bell (00:07:42): Yeah I mean I think people are sort of waiting for that shoe to drop on hey I’m searching for I don’t know whatever I’m searching for it could be a supplement or something and yeah tell me tell me if I should buy the supplement for my health or whatever and give me the 10 blue links you know go ahead and just or you know recommend a product and give me the different prices and the shopping experience and yeah they haven’t really figured that out yet. Yeah and so people me especially I’m LLM first right that’s my home you know when I open up a new tab it’s ChatGPT right and I use cloud for a lot of stuff too and I think that’s becoming the new interface of the internet right is agents and AI and so a lot of smart people saw this including this analyst who stumped the Google execs on the earnings call why didn’t they just build this themselves
Jochen Madler (00:08:30): So I think there is a lot of companies now in the space, of course, and like it’s a it’s a growing space, especially in the monitoring piece. But I always felt like and it’s true, like this is the first step. So letting people basically peek into the box, right, like and opening this up. having a lot of synthetic searches going on to tell people, hey, what are LLMs now seeing? Do they see your brand or don’t they see your brand? And I think this part is one thing, but this is really close to SEO. And so I think the most obvious thing, which we still hear today is like, hey, yeah, but this, I mean, sure, this is a new thing, but it’s actually just SEO 2.0. And so I think this is something we don’t believe in. I think it’s way bigger. Yeah. And so this is why I think many miss this or just dismiss this.
Brian Bell (00:09:13): Yeah. So you’re a special kind of founder who started in academia and switched to startups. That’s a very unique path. You know, others have done it. But like, what did you believe about markets and maybe startups back when you were in academia that you now think is completely wrong?
Jochen Madler (00:09:28): So I think like I was actually in energy markets with an energy study for the German government assimilating these kind of things. And I think like market theory and like search is a zero sum game, right? It’s attention. And so you have these 10 blue links, at least in the old world in Google. And so whenever like it’s it’s you on there it’s not someone else on there so it’s really like this game of getting to the top and in the serious game I think like the interesting piece about markets in my opinion is what kind of like assumptions you take of people for like humans essentially we have this like homo economicus where like people are rational and like take all of these choices and I think the interesting thing with which the whole SEO industry in my opinion is built around is that people are actually humans right and they don’t they’re not rational they actually like go for these fancy CTA optimized titles and so it’s really not like yeah it’s really not an efficient market in my opinion and with LLMs and the whole thing gets, in my opinion, more rational now. I’m happy to dive in how, but I think the search space is essentially getting bigger than just template links. And also it’s getting more rational because it’s actually not humans now reading these pages, getting maybe blown off by cool parallax animations or colors or images. It’s really now more about product-like specs and information and data.
Brian Bell (00:10:41): Right yeah because the AI you got this 150 160 postdoc PhD level assistant and almost every human domain that can digest books worth whole textbooks the whole academic literature on something and then say hey I’ve crunched it and I’ve actually I’ve looked at I have this whole context window on you as a person because of all the all the data you’ve given me and you know I’ve crunched this all into this nice little paragraph of stuff you need to know right and so it is creating this like hyper rationalization around information dissemination and discovery and search. That’s a really fascinating take.
Jochen Madler (00:11:19): Yeah and I think like so for example if we like insurance is in my opinion a great example because usually like insurance is something like a semi-complex product but you You usually have like some broker or something helping you out and they would like know stuff and now a lot of people are going to CHPT and like starting this information journey pretty high up in a like not in a buy intent level but more like a learning experience like hey what is an insurance what kind of what different insurances are there and then for going from there and I think now it’s like the search in Google search you could bet on these keywords and just focus on the very transactional ones where you actually already buy an insurance but you lose so much context and with the LLMs you now have this whole like learning infrastructure the whole chat window essentially which carries so much more context and it gives also actually brands and a better way upstream to jump in there and provide also not only like a product but also value in explanation
Brian Bell (00:12:12): Yeah, so you’re essentially just applying this optimization to human attention. What part of marketing is actually just a math problem?
Jochen Madler (00:12:19): So I think, I mean, as I told you with the zero sum game, I think it’s really like marketing is essentially like trying to map what product, like what brand is selling to people who want to buy it, right? And that’s really the keyword idea of Google which in my opinion is actually genius we have people are looking for something and they encode to something in keywords they type into a search bar and brands are selling something and they also encode it by essentially putting these keywords on their site and so it’s really nice like that’s that’s working and it’s a huge like it’s this optimization problem of actually which keywords do I want to target and then we have of course other competitors also targeting these keywords and you get these bidding dynamics and this SEO and I think this still is this is marketing in a nutshell and the interesting thing now with AI search is with GEO this space this like encoding is way more like there’s way the information bandwidth is way higher now I don’t need to in court like encoders previously Google searches were pretty much like three maybe four maybe five keywords that’s it and I need to encode all of my knowledge all of my desires all of my background into those four or five keywords and now without elements we have all of this context we have way more longer prompts and so we can basically match this way better and that’s really exciting
Brian Bell (00:13:33): Most people think the AI search is just like another channel, right? Just like Google search or social media. And I think you think different. How do you think about it?
Jochen Madler (00:13:42): So in my opinion, like websites, controversial statement maybe, but I think websites are going away. So like over the short But I think this will become, as the systems get better over time, this will become less and less Actually, the web that’s being browsed will be browsed by agents and not humans. And therefore, the information and how it’s presented will also change. It will change for agents essentially. And the most exciting part about this is that it’s not only about visiting a web page and structuring it with more text. but of course we see this now with OpenClaw these agents can now not only read stuff but actually also do stuff on a webpage and once we enter this this gets really exciting because then the whole online funnel with like marketing and checkouts and everything can be done by agents actually it’s already done by agents and so this is really like this this blows the whole thing open because now agents can actually not only do the research but also the transactions
Brian Bell (00:14:50): yeah I can go talk to my agent like I would talk to my EA and say hey I need to you know buy some basketball tickets tonight and I want some good seats I like to sit you know kind of center court you know find me the best price on SeatGeek or whatever and I need two tickets I know the game’s at seven o’clock tonight and go and that’s it and just goes and does it and what’s your budget oh did you want to spend five is it okay to spend 500 or whatever the number is yeah that’s fine cool and it’s just done and you think about you know how that used to work in you know the standard web you kind of have to download the app or go to the site got to create an account and then you gotta like run the search and then you gotta like get your credit card info in there and then and you know increasingly we’re all gonna have these super intelligent super helpful agents assistants that can execute tasks do research and and buy stuff for us yeah so it’s a it’s a completely different thing how do you think about uh and what are you seeing in the platform today between kind of human traffic versus Asian traffic
Jochen Madler (00:15:49): like in the web per se or for our customers or yeah or just in the zeitgeist your customers on the web yeah I mean it’s it’s kind of early we live in the future right you and I like in San Francisco NYC You know it’s definitely not like the future is here it’s just not equally distributed yet is the phrase and I’m curious what you’re seeing in your platform of like how equally distributed is the future so yeah that’s a great tag actually and also it’s in my opinion really like important to state so you take like all the humans and you put them in this Bay Area it’s already like a set but then all of this also in YC and so it’s really like everyone for example like in this ecosystem everyone thinks everyone is using cloud code which is not the case right like it’s just up one percent and so yeah it’s always important to notice then when doing the reality check and talking to our customers which are really like much go to go to brands they usually see AI traffic in like the single digit percents of all their web traffic and so it’s really like sub 10% for sure and for most it’s also sub 5% so it’s it’s small but it’s not negligible anymore and actually it’s and the whole point is it’s really growing faster and so that’s that’s the the first derivative essentially of like how fast is it growing that’s what matters.
Brian Bell (00:17:00): yeah and technology has this way of sticking around we think of You know AOL is dead but I think there’s like still like tens of millions of people that log into AOL every day still and you know I think the same can be said for like Yahoo like we think of like the Yahoo directory kind of web experience is dead but people still log into Yahoo and kind of use the directory and you know I still use Google for some stuff you know sometimes I just want a quick answer or I need I need to actually find a resource online so technology has this way of Kevin Kelly wrote this book I’d love to Kevin if you’re listening I’d love to have you on the pod someday but he wrote a book called what technology wants and in there he kind of goes through all the evolution the evolution of technologies right and how technology evolves and it proliferates and there’s definitely like kind of the you know the crossing the chasm early majority kind of framework but he makes this point that the technology never really goes away it just sort of maybe gets more pushed to the side It’s still kind of there, but a new technology comes and usurps the whole experience over time. And I definitely feel like agents will do that. We’re living in the future. We’re seeing what could happen, how the world could be. But I think the rest of the world is probably still five or ten years away from really going, oh, this is just my default experience, talking to my agent every day, and it just does stuff for me.
Jochen Madler (00:18:19): Yeah, I agree. Like, especially the web, in my opinion, there will be like a super, like, for sure, there will be both types of webs for humans and for ages coexisting for a long time. for sure but I also like this proliferation of technologies it’s getting faster every year I feel and with ChatGPT for example like sure it started already now I think three years ago maybe even three and a half years ago in November 2022
Brian Bell (00:18:43): I think yeah right a little over yeah three and a half years ago maybe yeah even like close to four but still like now like I think is it a billion or eight eight nine hundred million users now so it’s almost like almost a billion users yeah yeah an eighth of the human population right in like four years
Jochen Madler (00:18:58): An agent will come right behind that, right? I think a lot of us have had that OpenClaw experience where it’s like, oh yeah, it just does stuff or the cloud coworker or the cloud code or codex. But I don’t think a lot of people have had that ChatGPT moment yet with agents. I don’t think OpenClaw is going to be it, especially because OpenAI bought them. Maybe it’ll just be ChatGPT one day. You’ll just be talking to it and it’s like, oh yeah, by the way, you want me to like check out and buy that for you? Can I just go get that for you?
Jochen Madler (00:19:25): Actually I think like Chbt acquired like the Open Cloud Founder in a sense where like he joined OpenAI I think that’s the right phrase To build agents inside yeah To put this inside right so we can really expect these like systems Chbt in particular to have these kind of capabilities sooner rather than later and I think they already have this distribution right of like 900 million users and so like with a snip of a button if they just roll out one more feature all of a sudden this now is like agent ready and can do stuff on websites so yeah I think we’re not too far away
Brian Bell (00:19:55): yeah fascinating world but what is in this area of and what do you call in this category is it AEO is it like answer engine optimization like what is what do you call it
Jochen Madler (00:20:05): So yeah I think there’s this big debate right between GEO generative engine optimization and then answer AEO answer engine optimization in my opinion like I don’t care we started with the GEO keyword which we just use for now but I really don’t have strong opinions and in my opinion like this GEO it’s it really narrows people into this 0.0 thinking which for sure with this monitoring is a part but it’s not the main part in my opinion it’s the first one but more like the more interesting thing is marketing to agents so agent experience instead of customer experience I think this would be the new thing which really will accrue a lot of value and will get many people excited
Brian Bell (00:20:42): Yeah, love that. So what is winning in this AI answer space actually mean in practice?
Jochen Madler (00:20:48): So for brands, like why are brands working with Sidefire and us is because, of course, they want to be, first of all, present, like pretty much marketing 101, right? Like it’s you want to be present in front of the user. So you want to be mentioned by these, first of all. So when they type in something about an insurance, the one insurance company wants to mention them, like primarily in a positive light. And then the second thing is, so that’s brand awareness and it’s brand mentioned. And so the second objective for these companies is not only getting brand mentioned, but also having their site, their link in there as a citation, such that people click on it and do a checkout. And so it’s really just true optimization, but it actually goes like it’s it goes both ways. So when you do a search, there is these web searches in the background happening. They got all these pages, the LLMs go through these pages, understand what’s interesting enough to be cited and these citations and these sources, they also inform which brands are being mentioned in the answer. They ground the whole thing. And so it really goes hand in hand.
Brian Bell (00:21:54): So imagine Google and OpenAI disappeared tomorrow. Let’s take them one at a time. If Google disappeared tomorrow, what percentage of companies would lose their primary source of distribution?
Jochen Madler (00:22:04): Well, a lot. I think over 50%. So we see this now with companies. Google is really everywhere. And I think like even with this AI, I mean, they’re doing their best drive with Gemini and so on. But Google is huge and Google search. So I think at least we did this like estimation napkin thing. So in my opinion, it’s like 60, 70% of companies are having their main distribution channel or as organic traffic, either paid or organic via Google, which is crazy. So take away anything, of course, which is really like outbound driven sales or like farming, mining, stuff like this, defense tech, but anything else, actually, anything consumer related is really, really just.
Brian Bell (00:22:45): Yeah. And what about OpenAI?
Jochen Madler (00:22:47): I mean OpenAI is really directly eating into the cake of Google so it’s really the same number in my opinion they just share this one thing because ChatGPT is really it’s using web search in the background it’s actually using Bing and so it’s the
Brian Bell (00:23:00): same kind of system okay interesting so in your opinion is GEO just SEO with a different label or is it different
Jochen Madler (00:23:09): So we or I think of it as like GEO in the narrow sense is really like this SEO 2.0 so making sure that you have the right web pages such that people right now are being like the brands are being mentioned in these answers and their links are being cited so that’s GEO and I think the broader term then which is exciting future is this agent experience maybe then it will be subsumed by GEO maybe it’ll be a different thing I think we don’t know yet yeah
Brian Bell (00:23:34): I’ve already learned to use markdown files now more when I interact with cloud and OpenAI because it just reads it easier, right? So I’m just like, okay, like you prefer a markdown file here. I’ll just start using those and they’re kind of cleaner anyway.
Jochen Madler (00:23:47): It’s interesting. There’s this like, yeah, just the first version of my opinion of this parallel web we’re seeing that like a lot of customers of ours now actually Cloudflare launched this as well just to serve a markdown clone, a markdown mirroring essentially of every web page for the agents. Strip it of any like pictures anything just raw information but who would have thought like marketing is such an old technology and now we are back there it is so
Brian Bell (00:24:10): your product doesn’t just analyze it executes maybe you could tell us what that means
Jochen Madler (00:24:13): yeah so I think that’s the interesting part which we really like built out during YC now this year this is so we started with this monitoring so you have all of these synthetic prompts you run through and you can tell people what web pages are being shown in the answers and once you know this you can then start like improving right and so Improving means there’s really two kind of broad categories you can improve as a brand and it’s always through the web so you put out different content on the web about yourself about others and this influences these background web searches of these models because right now we don’t I don’t have a scalable way of infiltrating the training data of JTBD5 or something. This is over time, of course, with Common Crawl, but then it’s still stuff you put on the web. So in my opinion, what we do is you have on page and you have off page. And for on page as a brand, it’s really your own website. you can either create new content or you can create or you can improve your existing content to better tailor it to elements and for off page that’s also something with the whole trust issue or like the trust thing so we have these editorial coverage sites so it could be PRs outlets that write about you and mention you as a brand and then UGC, User Generated Content. This is really like YouTube, Reddit, Quora, all of this. And so as a brand, you have really these like the on-page stuff. It’s really scalable. This is what we automate with Sitefire. We can create blog posts and we use this information, essentially what we see. and then reverse engineer what’s working right now to tailor and to tell you what to do and then actually do it for you and so I think there’s one big difference which we’ve seen with like many companies and we also tried this in the beginning is gathering a lot of information and then running like a lot of like tests to find out elements of websites that are working and then applying them as a general set. This, in my opinion, doesn’t work because the world is too complex and LLM is a true statistic in their nature. So what we found with a lot of models and also other companies out there, they are running these monitorings and then they are trying to extract out certain snippets but in order to fit everyone it becomes so generic as of yeah you should add FAQs to your site or something like this right which is so generic it doesn’t help and so what we do with our system we for each topic you want to appear in we gather the top-sided pages so we can understand And what is it? It could be anything. It could be Reddit. It could be your own page. It could be a competitor’s blog post. And then depending on what works, we have agents that essentially do the whole SEO experts work for you in digging into those pages, understanding what’s the reason they’re being cited there, and then applying this to your own web page to tell you either, hey, you don’t have something on this topic yet. You should write about it. Or, hey, it’s actually these three Reddit threads that are really driving this answer. You should post something in there. Stuff like this.
Brian Bell (00:26:52): Yeah, I wonder how they’re doing that at the OpenAI cloud and Google and Grok for that matter. Are they using some version of PageRank to try to figure out what’s authoritative? You know, because back when I was in demand gen marketing, it was all about like backlinks and Google every month or two or three would publish a new version of their algorithm. And you had to like go back and like redo all your pages to try to rank higher for different keywords and stuff. Do you know how I was kind of working under the hood there?
Jochen Madler (00:27:21): Yes, so I think the interesting thing here to understand is, so you have a prompt, you input it into jhpt, and then jhpt takes this one prompt of you and expands it into multiple search queries. And these usually are longer than what humans would type in. They look weirdly specific for human Google search queries, but they carry all of this like context you bring in and so they run maybe like three to five to even ten web web searches at a time in parallel gather all of these pages and for each of these web queries it’s really Google’s ranking at work right it’s really still the same Google ranking which has as you said rightly page rank baked in and so essentially you get the top ten Google searches for each topic which already includes this page rank and authority and so on and then they gather these pages and then there’s one so it’s proprietary right we don’t know for sure but there’s something like a rank fusion algorithm going on where you basically compare across these 10 web pages was there any web page that appeared for example twice and was it an in one search it was number one and the other one it was like number eight and then maybe we have some other ones and so essentially like a waiting across the search grace to find out the most important pages and then once you have them they go into these pages and read them top to bottom with like these snippets and that’s where then the markdown mirroring comes in and so you can optimize your page on a technical level to once it’s crossed the border of it’s being found in the background it’s also passed this rank fusion algorithm now it’s being considered by the LLM and then it reads through all of these snippets and then you can have a structure and like content, for example, facts or like quotations, stuff like this, which then gets extracted.
Brian Bell (00:28:53): What was the first version of the product that actually worked for you guys?
Jochen Madler (00:28:58): I think, yeah, so an official or like what sold and what like what was used was already like back in 2025 as a monitoring product. But we always felt like this didn’t really work because it’s really just an analytics solution. And so it was really until, in my opinion, in the beginning of March in NYC when we started with this actions, which by the way, we also tried first distilling a lot of features didn’t work really. But then the first thing which our agentic approach was in beginning of March when we had one customer who was really like going ham with our situation. I was really one of the first ones to really try it they’re like a programming website like Coursera but for like only for programming courses and they really started applying our suggestions and like creating the content the tired side fire outputs launching I think one block was a day and we increased their AI traffic by 170% in just 10 days and we also connected the network log so we could see every bot visit in Cloudflare and this was the first time and now it’s sustaining so it’s really nice I think then there was this aha moment of holy this actually works yeah
Brian Bell (00:30:01): I’m wondering if you have a blog and you’re a brand, a startup, brand, enterprise, whatever, should you have that blog? A lot of people put them on Substack these days and maybe they put a subdomain on their main website. Will the AI read it just as well if it’s on Substack or are you not getting that accrual of all that crawl?
Jochen Madler (00:30:22): It’s better to have it on your own domain. It’s better to not have it on a subdomain, but really on your top domain. And that’s what we see works best. And then again, it really depends on the topic you’re looking to appear in, especially in these programming courses we had for this one customer. Some of them were really driven by Reddit, especially in JGPT. So there’s also a difference in the models. Many people know that JGPT really likes Reddit. But the thing is, with our system, there isn’t such a thing as like there’s one size fits all and then you’ll appear it’s really that for different topics sometimes you need to be in Reddit but sometimes you need to you can have a blog post and this works really well and sometimes we actually see that medium posts and substacks are being like referred more it’s also some sort of UGC content yeah so it really depends
Brian Bell (00:31:11): that’s interesting yeah I just wonder you know I have a blog for team ignite chose to put on Substack it was easy to do and I could have put on my website I guess I could use WordPress or whatever and but I just kind of decided that Substack has better distribution
Jochen Madler (00:31:21): and I also like Substack I mean that’s yeah I think for humans and the app and the ecosystem I think if you if this you have a lot of like yeah I think then it’s stronger it’s better I think purely from an LLM perspective and if that yeah it’s probably the website
Brian Bell (00:31:35): so how much of Sitefire today is product versus services
Jochen Madler (00:31:40): I think like the actions that we have it’s really fully automated right now it’s an agentic pipeline that runs but we are really like in like many for many customers we have like two tiers the ones who would want to do it self-serve and then the ones who have like some sort of human in the loop and of course we are like we want to see the systems we want to like know all the edge cases and so we are checking these outputs right and refining every day and so I think there’s the whole system is automated but we are really on the sidelines looking at these outputs and then thinking about is this really something only for this one customer this one topic or is this a general issue that we should improve our system so
Brian Bell (00:32:18): that’s what we do nice and then so far what has been the hardest technical problem you guys have had to solve I think
Jochen Madler (00:32:25): the yeah really just like the actions it really took like quite some time to get something that actually works and it’s not too generic so it’s probably the same thing we experienced with cloud code which I think a week ago the whole source code got leaked and so there isn’t really that much magic
Brian Bell (00:32:42): come out and kind of say like oh there’s we didn’t it was April Fool’s joke there was nothing actually like do you think they’re just kind of trying to cover cover up and yeah I think so yeah
Jochen Madler (00:32:51): But, I mean, like we had this, Boris, the creator of Cloud Code, he was at YC, gave a talk. And back then in the talk, you already said, like, they don’t do a big secret about Cloud Code. They had, like, competitors or customers, like enterprise customers, checking the source code, like, for any, like, things. They would happily give it out to them because the thing is, it’s not magic. but it’s a lot of tiny pieces put on top and I think we experience the same thing with our harnesses that we put our agents into and there’s not one single thing but you need to get a lot of things right on top and then suddenly it’s amazing and so for us that meant having the right harness and the right system problems but then also giving these agents the right tools at the right time so they have for example they have firecrawl they have certain APIs that they can use which are used in the SEO world and so they can really decide for certain things which makes them so flexible to employ different tools and this really is what took a lot of time yeah yeah I mean we’re the same and we have a lot of little AI thing processes we run you know you can just easily replicate them because they’ve been iterated on dozens if not hundreds of times right you have to kind of work with the AI over months and years to get it to do just the thing you want to want it to do what’s a widely held belief about AI marketing that you think is completely wrong so yeah I think like the obvious thing is this SEO thing that people yeah
Jochen Madler (00:34:14): I just think you want to get on a webpage and then yeah my opinion like so we have a strong belief that like the whole point of marketing agencies is something that will probably be automated most of it I think not all of it there’s always room for like experts but I think this is something that many people haven’t really gotten their head around because it’s just so ingrained. But I think why is this the case? I think there’s a deeper reason. With SEO, there was always a new hack in town. Every six months or something, there was a new SEO agency that could claim, hey, now things change, a new update. We figured it out. Let’s do a project. and then they applied some system until it didn’t work anymore and you needed these people to constantly be on the ball and follow these updates but now with AI and our systems it’s reactive anyways we monitor each day we see shifts in the content that’s being cited and now we don’t have people anymore needing to look at updates we can have all of these updates in markdown files and feed it to the agents they know in 10 minutes they know more about how the algorithm changed than any human could And so, yeah, the whole system, the whole machinery about SEO agencies, in my opinion, is something that’s going to go away.
Brian Bell (00:35:25): Do you think that content will get commoditized to zero as well?
Jochen Madler (00:35:28): Yeah, I think that’s an interesting I don’t know for sure how it will happen but for sure you see that a lot of people I mean with cloud code right like you can put out web pages left right and center like as many as you want and I think really the content creation is commoditized it’s going to zero everyone can create lots of content the question now is creating the right content that works and that’s a big difference so yeah I think the in my opinion what will happen is that Yeah, this backlink thing and like this reputation will become more important again. And because the cost of creating new content is just so low and keeps decreasing.
Brian Bell (00:36:09): So what’s to stop like SEMrush or HubSpot launching this tomorrow? Why wouldn’t they win in this space?
Jochen Madler (00:36:14): I mean, they’re trying, right? Like they rebranded, they’re now launching their suite. I think, yeah, the interesting thing is they had this SEO thing going on for 20 years and they didn’t launch any actions. I think they have a lot of people, but I think you could have said the same thing for like many companies. So far, I don’t have any problems actually.
Brian Bell (00:36:32): It’s the hardest thing about being an investor, by the way. is like when you look at a company and you’re like, will this company get big before the incumbents decide to eat their lunch, right? And just build it themselves. And so I’m constantly like kind of watching the OpenAI, Google, Claude, Grok roadmap, you know, what they’re building. to try to inform myself of like okay because if they move in and they build in your space you’re done unless they choose to buy you right but you know if Microsoft just decides like hey agents are cool like we’re just going to build like this like super powerful agent that does everything I’m sure and they are they have the co-pilot agents and stuff and it’s not very good but like how do you think about that like if you were like put your VC hat on
Jochen Madler (00:37:14): you know and you’re looking at a company there was like a brutal scene in my opinion actually with the cloud code shock that was at YC there was like 100 people of YC founders invited and then one guy was building memory management for these coding engines and he was pitching his thing like in the Q&A and Boris was in the end like of his yeah you know what you should pivot because we’re launching this next week
Brian Bell (00:37:35): yeah that’s a feature I mean and that’s exactly the thing I’m talking about it’s like okay cool feature and you know they’ll just put a few engineers on that and just bundle it right in you know you have to be really careful as an investor that’s why I do a lot of vertical or new category like you guys like hey this is new it’s so new that it’s going to take Google a long time to figure it out and maybe they’ll never figure it out and maybe they’re not really incentivized to help you figure it out either you know yeah that’s actually a big thing
Jochen Madler (00:38:03): right so yeah so in my opinion like actually we are safe in a sense at least from the foundation labs because we are optimizing sort of against their system or against their objective function to serve users and so Google cannot offer I mean it’s the same with SEO services they are doing their best to monetize with ads right like and they’re you know they’ll give you the AdWords tool they’ll give you the keyword kind of tool and stuff but they’re not going to tell you exactly how to like game their system right because their customer is the consumer right they want to make sure the consumer has a good experience not the business has a good like the business is like a means to an end of like paying for the consumer experience but the consumer is the customer well consumer is kind of the product too in this equation but yeah yeah I mean they cannot if you have a platform and you’re selling ads anyways you cannot have this organic algorithm and put one company above the other on your platform right like that so I think it’s not happening and so that’s not a problem.
Brian Bell (00:38:55): Well let’s talk about the future walk us through a world where AI agents fully replace search what does that customer journey look like?
Jochen Madler (00:39:02): So actually we had this happening to one of our customers it’s another YC company two weeks ago and so they are selling are using some sort of API software, like a wrapper for certain go-to-market APIs. And they told us they got their first user from OpenCloud without any human in the loop. And so what happened was that right now OpenCloud, if you configure it correctly, it can do this already. They had an API. It found their service via web search. It found that it had docs, so it visited their docs page. And then there was a free authentication on it you needed to install. And so it did. It authenticated. It started using the API and draw the credits until it’s empty. And so they got paid usage from without any human loop. And I think this is crazy, right? And then they came to Sidefire, of course, like, hey, we want to know more. And now we’re ramping this up.
Brian Bell (00:39:51): Yeah, we got to figure this out. I’d love to get an LP to invest in our fund without talking to them. That would be amazing. Not that I don’t want to talk to LPs. If LPs are listening, I want to talk to you, but you know, that’d be great, right? Like, oh, I just got like a 250K check into my fund and I didn’t even talk to this LP. The agent just kind of did that.
Jochen Madler (00:40:09): And from a perspective of the end user who is using this, you don’t really care for many things. You don’t really care what service exactly you’re using, especially if it’s APIs. You want to have it robust, you want to have it cheap, and that’s it. I think for humans we have this human shopping experience where we have these review like the checkout wasn’t great or like the product wasn’t great actually it was cheap but it didn’t last long and so the same thing in my opinion will be for agents because you can have a great onboarding experience but if it’s like super cumbersome to have these tools and they are down every like third time you call them actually you don’t have a great agent experience so in my opinion a really cool thing would be if there is like some sort of you know this claw hub right where open claw people or like open claw agents would talk to each other where you have some sort of review forum for like APIs where agents basically report how their experience was using this API
Brian Bell (00:41:12): Yeah, kind of like a moltbook Yelp review G2 crowd for agents I got this massive markdown file of all the products with all the SKUs and all the customer experiences and they’re like oh yeah I searched the G2 crowd like product hunt whatever review site for for this product and it turns out yeah it’s like has good reviews on Amazon but you know six months later the thing falls apart and we know that because all these agents were reporting that into the moltbook like markdown file that’s really interesting what do you think value accrues in the world going forward you got the model layer you got the interface a sas you have infrastructure then you have all the like the raw materials you have the chips
Jochen Madler (00:41:56): so for sure like the chips and like selling the shovels for a long time do you think Sure. And I think like it’s interesting for a lot of software companies to think about if their service, which is true, and we see this with many customers now, especially the ones and the more modern facing ones are no longer inclined to log into a new dashboard. They rather would have an MCP or something. and just use their super apps or codecs or cloud coworker or something to deal with software. And the thing is, for the software providers, you really reduce your whole value proposition to an API that’s being run or searched in the background. And so this is a problem, of course, for so API like software as a service is being eaten by AI and the service you provide will really be become infra essentially because it’s an API and so yeah that’s that’s one thing that’s going to be true and then I think the also if you are then I think scaling and if you’re doing this marketing right like using Sapphire or some other tool to basically be the one the API found this distribution is almost via API it’s almost instant this is why also this marketing to agents is so important because just connecting your API if it’s your API that’s being found and it’s being used there’s no incentive to switch and so yeah really you’re locked in and you have all of this memory which these agents create so I think I think like But the most interesting shift in value will be around SAS. So at these dashboards and these software solutions, I think for traditional infra, I mean, they just stay infra. I think that’s fine. There, I don’t have any strong things or takes or something about this.
Brian Bell (00:43:23): Yeah. Yeah. And it’s weird. I think if you look at the history of tech technological revolutions and as they kind of proliferate they kind of whipsaw up the stack I think I don’t think SAS goes away necessarily I think SAS without AI goes away right I think some people are just going to want to log in just like some people just want to use Google I just want to get like a quick answer I don’t want to wait for chat GBT to like search stuff and like just like give me the answer really fast so I still think there’ll be room for SAS yeah I think it’s going to be a rising tide across all layers of the stack, honestly. That’s what I personally think. If you guys succeed massively looking out five or ten years, what do you actually own and what does that look like? What’s your vision for the future?
Jochen Madler (00:44:00): So right now we are helping companies to be discovered by agents. So basically The next step is, as we do it with this one company, that their API is being found and then integrated by OpenClaw or in the future of other agents. And so this is really just marketing to agents then that their API is used more in or like cells essentially and is being drawn from and so the content that we put out in the web now it’s really blog posts and so it’s still in a human readable form you could go in and like read these blog posts as well they’re not that pretty they’re optimized for agents but still like you could in the future But like these content and webpages we put out, it’s the first thing that agents see when they interact with their brand. And so from there on, once these agents get more capable and cannot only read content but also do something with it, authenticate or something, we can also help brands to not only be the first front door to the site, but then we can also serve these tools on our website to develop this agent funnel. So we can have certain tools on our website that get a quote for our service or authenticate or even do the checkout and we can then and also help these companies basically revert all their business logic which was for humans to business logic for agents which is probably something around WebMCP and I thought in my opinion like the implementation isn’t complex it’s just some code on the website but the monitoring layer is interesting to see because just embedding some tool on your website won’t cut it. It’s really like this is marketing now too, essentially. And so you need to understand where you need to embed it, what works, what doesn’t, and A-B testing, all of this. And so mapping out the agent journey on a webpage, that’s something we can also help with. And I think this is really exciting.
Brian Bell (00:45:41): Okay, so let’s wrap up with a rapid fire. What did you believe about startups two years ago that you no longer believe?
Jochen Madler (00:45:48): that you need a lot of people and need to scale headcount I think now it’s not true you just need a few people with great tools yeah so basically just kind of set up all the AI agentic workflows like oh we need to do this thing we need a SDR to go qualify demos like cool agentic workflow we need another agent to like reach out to people agentic workflow we need somebody to follow up with people when they’re not using the product anymore and check in on them agentic workflow Yeah exactly Is that basically it now?
Jochen Madler (00:46:17): Yeah and I think of course like it’s not dystopia that like no humans will be used anymore but I think like the first inkling of if there’s something to be done it’s now can I do this with AI and if not of course Yeah I mean I’ve had this experience I’ve set up a lot of AI here and I was like a very early user of OpenClaw so it just it was burning through like I was burning like a hundred dollars of tokens a day I was like this is a lot kind of a lot you know I find so far that if I have a contractor overseas that’s pretty well educated and I give them a process with AI to follow I get a lot better outcomes right now than just a pure AI driven I mean that’s not the case if you really really tune the AI it’s like you’re really really good at tuning the AI you get a lot of time to like work with it and it’s very domain specific vertical specific you can get it to do exactly what you want it to do but yeah I mean I can see the promise of that
Brian Bell (00:47:09): What’s the decision you made early at SiteFire that you would reverse today?
Jochen Madler (00:47:12): I think this first layer of following what everyone was trying to do with these actions of basically running a huge regression and trying to distill some pieces that work everywhere, like a grand model of how a geo works. I think this was doomed to fail. But yeah, we tried it anyways.
Brian Bell (00:47:29): I don’t understand the context. What is the direct actions?
Jochen Madler (00:47:31): and so like the idea is if you do a lot of monitoring and then you’re basically trying to see why are these pages ranking and you can basically do a lot of statistics right on this like what are the features and there’s so many studies on this what are the features that are being like used in these pages and this has some value but it’s really like the world is more complex than that and so basically going all in and trusting these agents basically putting in little SEO researchers instead of applying some model this really is something that I would do differently now
Brian Bell (00:48:00): What’s the most dangerous assumption in your current strategy?
Jochen Madler (00:48:03): So I think we are we are banking on the people that AI will win essentially like that people will use ChatGPT, Cloud Coworker and all of this as super apps and so if this is not true and actually that people are still using Google for a lot of things or if they are using platforms such as for example Airbnb it’s quite interesting I talked to the founder and he said yeah we’re not doing this JTBG integration we want our app that people should be on our app right not on JTBG and so if there’s enough platforms that can manage to have the power like this I think within Airbnb there is no optimization to be had right it’s a platform game and so I think yeah this is a risky assumption
Brian Bell (00:48:41): Yeah I think you’ll have both I think you’ll have like kind of the Google and Bing of AI which is starting to coalesce and then you’ll have lots of local experiences right that are kind of locked down right what’s something your customers say they want but you’re just ignoring them you think it’s like a bad idea so I mean there’s like right now since we are working with them on this new thing but of course like once they see there’s some working and there’s like tech developing they also want to have it for SEO and like for the traditional web pages and like nice human interactive elements stuff like this and yeah this is something we need to say no because we need to focus but yeah it’s a short-term thing that would work right now but I’m really sure it’s not working anymore in the future
Brian Bell (00:49:22): What’s a metric that you care about that most people wouldn’t understand?
Jochen Madler (00:49:26): So I think for me, this bot requests, so like connecting with the network logs of the customers and AI referrals from Google Analytics and looking at those metrics. First of all, what’s your traffic to the site from agents? This is really these background searches hitting your site. And then, of course, what’s the click through? They are not directly the same thing. But of course, you can see essentially which pages are working in AI and which ones are driving the traffic. and which ones are driving the traffic. And I think, yeah, this is something I care about because ultimately what spins up this whole agent funnel.
Brian Bell (00:49:57): What’s a recent opinion that you changed your mind on?
Jochen Madler (00:50:00): Yeah this SEO agency thing I think at the beginning we worked with them I think and of course we wanted to learn about the space and I mean there’s a lot of knowledgeable people in there and so we were really trying hard to sell our tool to them like as partners or something and I think now yeah I don’t believe like this is too strongly the case anymore Yeah, because essentially they also had a hard time justifying the price because they obviously want to have their own knowledge and power and work and consulting on top of it. And so I think this is really a channel which we stopped doing.
Brian Bell (00:50:36): If you had to bet against Sitefire, your own company, what would the argument be?
Jochen Madler (00:50:41): I mean something that we get a lot of of course competition you can always that’s something you can bet on and I think the other bad you can do is that like there will be this so I think a risk is or like something that that is maybe true is like that these AI these foundation labs they don’t like their system to be game too much right and so if there’s a company that’s too successful and systematically outperforms too largely on their algorithm they of course like they could do something about it I think they have the technical capabilities I think at that point I think we are we are in a good spot in my opinion if this is true and also the main thing is of course yes making people discoverable but also making this whole agent journey possible so I think back then it’s a thing but I think this is something if you have these companies against you I think it’s really a bad spot to be in that this is a risk that we run but actually we now manage to get them on board on our company some of them so actually we’re in a good spot
Brian Bell (00:51:41): Awesome I really enjoyed the conversation where can folks find you online?
Jochen Madler (00:51:42): So we are like our website is sitefire.ai yeah and I think anything from there we have the same thing on X but yeah that’s really it
Brian Bell (00:51:51): That’s awesome. I’m surprised you were able to get sitefire.ai. That feels like you had to buy it from somebody or what?
Jochen Madler (00:51:58): No, actually not. We spent a lot of time like researching and we were previously were called something else, which was, we really liked the name, but we needed to switch it during YC before we all launched. And we had two intense days of searching domains and then we finally found this.
Brian Bell (00:52:12): That’s awesome. Yeah. I was so, so lucky when team ignite was not, that did not really exist. I was like, cool. because that’s what I wanted I didn’t have to actually do the two days of intense searching but that’s always like a thing where you got the perfect name you’re like oh man somebody owns it they want 50 for it you know and also there’s like this
Jochen Madler (00:52:30): immediate thing of like you think of this great name and then you’re disappointed because someone else thought of the same name right yeah but I think you guys got a good name so yeah thanks for coming on really enjoyed it yes me too thank you so much
